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	<title>scepticalbanter.com &#187; GM</title>
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		<title>Does the flouride in water mean it isn&#8217;t organic?</title>
		<link>http://scepticalbanter.com/2009/08/does-the-flouride-in-water-mean-it-isnt-organic/</link>
		<comments>http://scepticalbanter.com/2009/08/does-the-flouride-in-water-mean-it-isnt-organic/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>uksceptic</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Seriously?]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[eggs]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[food]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[GM]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[homeopathic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[medicine]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Organic]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scepticalbanter.com/?p=199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A debate often happens at the supermarket between me and my girlfriend when it comes to buying eggs. She wants to buy the organic since this guarantees a standard of care for the chickens, my argument is that the only thing that separates organic from free range is the way the chickens are fed. I.e. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A debate often happens at the supermarket between me and my girlfriend when it comes to buying eggs. She wants to buy the organic since this guarantees a standard of care for the chickens, my argument is that the only thing that separates organic from free range is the way the chickens are fed. I.e. they must be fed with organic produce. It turns out that I am wrong on this, while the conditions for free range birds are significantly better than battery housed birds they are not quite as good as the organic standard, as you can see from this table;</p>
<p><strong> </strong></p>
<h5><strong><strong>Comparison of standards for organic and &#8216;free-range&#8217; chickens &#8211; poultry meat</strong></strong></h5>
<p><strong><strong><br />
</strong></strong></p>
<table style="height: 425px;" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="589">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top"></td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Soil Association</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Other organic certifiers</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Free range</strong></h5>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Flock size </strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>1,000 birds</h6>
<h6>(500 recommended) ii</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>4,800 birds, but can   be as many as 9,000</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>No limit (typically</h6>
<h6>several thousand)</h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Fresh grass (resting</strong></h5>
<h5><strong>pasture)</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>At least 2 months a year + an extra   year in every three</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>At least 2 months a year</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>No requirement for</h6>
<h6>resting land</h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Time spent roaming</strong></h5>
<h5><strong>outside (outside access)</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>At least 2/3 of lifetime</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>At least 2/3 of lifetime</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>At least ½ of</h6>
<h6>lifetime</h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Space to move around in house (stocking density)</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>10 birds/m<sup>2</sup></h6>
<h6>(16/m<sup>2</sup> in mobile housing)</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>10-16 birds/m<sup>2</sup>.</h6>
<h6>But can be as many as</h6>
<h6>13-20/m<sup>2</sup></h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>13 birds/m<sup>2</sup></h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Space outside</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>4m<sup>2</sup></h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>4m<sup>2</sup></h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>1m<sup>2</sup></h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Other standards</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top"></td>
<td width="154" valign="top"></td>
<td width="154" valign="top"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Shelter in range area</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>Yes</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>Yes</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>No</h6>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h5><strong>Age at slaughter</strong></h5>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>81days</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>81days</h6>
</td>
<td width="154" valign="top">
<h6>56days</h6>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<h6><strong>Above Table taken from Welfare standards for organic and &#8216;free-range&#8217; chickens and eggs <a href="http://www.foodforlife.org.uk/resources/documents/Food%20Quality%20and%20Provenance/Welfare_standards_for_organic_and_free_range_chicken_and_eggs.pdf" target="_blank">Soil Association information sheet.</a></strong></h6>
<p>Whilst I am happy to admit that I was wrong on this aspect of organic farming what is revealed in the Disease Prevention And Veterinary Treatment section of DEFRA’s <a href="Does the flouride in water mean it isn't organic?" target="_blank">Compendium of UK Organic Standards</a> is this little gem;</p>
<p style="padding-left: 30px;">5.4 Veterinary medicinal products must be authorised in accordance with current European and UK legislation and should only be used as permitted under such legislation. The use of veterinary medicinal products in organic farming shall comply with the following principles:</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">(a) Phytotherapeutic (e.g. plant extracts (excluding antibiotics), essences, etc.), homoeopathic products (e.g. plant, animal or mineral substances) and trace elements and products listed in Part C, section 3 of Annex II, shall be used in preference to chemically-synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products or antibiotics, provided that their therapeutic effect is effective for the species of animal, and the condition for which the treatment is intended.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">(b) If the use of the above products should not prove, or is unlikely to be, effective in combating illness or injury, and treatment is essential to avoid suffering or distress to the animal, chemically-synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products or antibiotics may be used under the responsibility of a veterinary surgeon.</p>
<p style="padding-left: 60px;">(c) The use of chemically synthesised allopathic veterinary medicinal products or antibiotics for preventive treatments is prohibited. Where due to an identified disease risk the welfare of animals cannot be maintained by management practices alone, the inspection body may permit the strategic use of a chemically synthesised allopathic veterinary medicine, other than an antibiotic, in the context of the health plan referred to in paragraph 5.1.2. Vaccination is permitted in cases where there is a known disease risk. Single, two in one or four in one vaccines are preferred to more complex multiple vaccines unless such cover is specifically required. Vaccine choice and use should be agreed with the nominated veterinary surgeon to ensure adequate disease protection during the conversion phase with, where possible, progressive reductions in use as the organic unit becomes established.</p>
<p>Now I would never want to question the commitment of wanting better welfare for livestock but it is within these sentences that organic farming allies itself with pseudoscience. There is a clear guidance to prefer homeopathic remedies over antibiotics and a direct instruction not to use medicine as a preventative measure. It is skirting around the edges of the age old fallacy that everything that is natural is good and therefore everything that is chemically synthesised is bad. This is nonsense, what is bad is alternative treatments that have been proven not to work, if this is what passes as a higher standard of care for animals then the organic label is nothing more than a pretence to bring in alternative medicine to another part of our lives in which it has no place.</p>
<p>The jury is still out on organic food, personally I don&#8217;t think that it will offer any solutions to growing food with greater yields and in  difficult climates that GM can. While I agree with some of their standards I completely disagree with their central argument that anything genetically modified must be bad especially when they offer no evidence for it.</p>
<p>For more reading on this subject I suggest the following;</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/farmingfood/organicfood/#h_7" target="_blank">Food Standards Agency on some common questions/misconceptions about Organic Farming</a></strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118788810/abstract?CRETRY=1&amp;SRETRY=0" target="_blank">Comparison of Homeopathy, Placebo and Antibiotic Treatment of Clinical Mastitis in Dairy Cows – Methodological Issues and Results from a Randomized-clinical Trial</a></strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.badscience.net/2009/08/check-me-out-i-bought-some-posh-chocolate-im-political/" target="_blank">Ben Goldacre&#8217;s column on the trial that proved organic is no better than normal food.</a></strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.rsc.org/Chemsoc/Chembytes/HotTopics/Organic/Index.asp" target="_blank">Royal Society of Chemistry&#8217;s overview of the Organic/Non Organic debate.</a></strong></p>
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